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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 4:58:22 GMT -6
Post by oldhasu on Apr 14, 2015 4:58:22 GMT -6
So I read though the rules and did not understand how are you planning to figure out situations where SRM brawler dude hides in tonnel with no willing to go out for 10 minutes? Is this a valid strategy for this tourney? In RHOD they play it on conquest mode with one point in the middle allowed to capture (Theta on Forest Colony) so players have to fight for it, all other points are not allowed to capture (and if you did so your only chance to win a match is kill all enemy mechs).
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 7:30:24 GMT -6
Post by Ardai on Apr 14, 2015 7:30:24 GMT -6
This is a very slippery slope, I am sending out a member wide e-mail to gather as many opinions as possible.
An official ruling will be made on Friday.
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 7:44:44 GMT -6
Post by banditb17 on Apr 14, 2015 7:44:44 GMT -6
I assume a gentleman's agreement is out of the question?
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 8:03:35 GMT -6
via mobile
Post by Ardai on Apr 14, 2015 8:03:35 GMT -6
If both players agree to not use tunnel, that is perfectly fine. Just make sure you screenshot in case of deception.
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 8:16:47 GMT -6
Post by b1zmark on Apr 14, 2015 8:16:47 GMT -6
The RHOD setup of a single cap point is the best idea. Otherwise expect to see over-sized XL engined mechs with a single gauss rifle doing enough damage to win then running around for 15 minutes until the match ends.
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 8:22:39 GMT -6
Post by frdrake on Apr 14, 2015 8:22:39 GMT -6
It's already provided for in the rules, graze him for 1 point of dmg with a large laser and go sit in the open if you want him to come out. The tunnel is rather long I can't think of any place someone can sit where if you enter the uncamped area you won't be able to see them across it.
If the argument is you don't want to check the tunnel for fear of a face full of SRMs when you go in the wrong door, then are we going to ban buildings and ambushes as well?
Thinking through this though we do need an anti "sit in your one spot til you pull off your perfect ambush" rule, otherwise there is no incentive for either person to leave the spawn and be the aggressor.
Now this can be done harshly, tie is a double DQ, or we can just use conquest and whoever has more points at timeout wins. I wouldn't restrict it to just one node though. Personally I vote play it out on conquest, to force both people to make moves.
*Edit - the whole reason I say play it normal conquest and not just theta conquest is that on Frozen city theta is down in that valley, I would want a competitor to be able to steal kappa/eps from their opponent instead of put themselves at a pretty big disadvantage by going down to theta.
*Edit 2 - Reread the rules and the map is forest colony now, theta is fine for a single cap point on that map if we want to go with that.
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 9:06:36 GMT -6
Post by funkycat on Apr 14, 2015 9:06:36 GMT -6
Well, imo RHOD idea with single cap point is the best solution for this situation. Or change map from forest colony to river city(there is some tunnel in RC but its kinda opened).
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 10:16:22 GMT -6
Post by Ardai on Apr 14, 2015 10:16:22 GMT -6
How would you feel if the first two rounds were Skirmish, 10 minute time limit, and the third, if necessary round, was Conquest Theta only with a 10 minute time limit? This allows the pilots to play the first two rounds to their taste, with the third round (if needed) all but guaranteeing a winner.
This would definitely simplify the current tie breaker system setup and I think add some uniqueness to the tournament.
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 10:32:38 GMT -6
Post by funkycat on Apr 14, 2015 10:32:38 GMT -6
Sounds good.
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Tonnel
Apr 14, 2015 13:16:14 GMT -6
Post by arn0ldschwarzenegger on Apr 14, 2015 13:16:14 GMT -6
Dont use this map as its gunna be a snipe fest, theres my opinion. Map to random! A true test of skill is to adapt for any situation
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Tonnel
Apr 15, 2015 4:00:38 GMT -6
Post by oldhasu on Apr 15, 2015 4:00:38 GMT -6
If you ask me I would love if you fully adopt RHOD system for this tournament, if not — just leave it as it is. I can tell that there is no more stupid matches whith both sides sit there at a spot they like doing nothing since this system with one capture point was introduced. Most of matches in RHOD4x4 season6 we play are quick and full of action.
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Tonnel
Apr 15, 2015 7:53:12 GMT -6
Post by Ardai on Apr 15, 2015 7:53:12 GMT -6
Proposed May event change:
Best of 3 Round 1: Conquest, Theta Cap only, 10 minute time limit. Round 2: Conquest, Theta Cap only, 10 minute time limit. Round 3: Conquest, Theta Cap only, 10 minute time limit.
Tie breakers: Total Kills > Total Conquest Points > Total Damage.
Cap rules: Theta Cap only, if another point is capped, the offending player can only win by destroying his opponent.
The map will remain Forest Colony, with an option for Forest Colony Snow. There has been a lot of good discussion about the maps, however I am going to stick with Forest Colony/FC Snow to see how it all plays out. For the June event, a more dynamic map system will be used.
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Tonnel
Apr 16, 2015 1:12:44 GMT -6
Post by unfearing on Apr 16, 2015 1:12:44 GMT -6
I'm curious as to why Conquest Points are more significant than Damage for tie-breakers, and how this will be calculated, as Points != Damage, and drawn out matches will net more Conquest Points than short matches. Will there be some scalar applied to the Conquest Points or vice versa to the Total Damage to better equalize damage output compared to the arbitrary measure of time referred to as Points? For example, if at the end of a Best of 3, neither pilot has successfully (or bothered) killing the other, and one has dealt 1500 damage over the matches while the other has accrued > 1500 Conquest Points, does the latter pilot take the win?
To further elaborate, are you sure this is enough of a condition: "if another point is capped, the offending player can only win by destroying his opponent" ? Going back to the previous case with an example scenario (we'll denote arbitrary earnings with simple sets: p[letter] = {points, damage}):
1. Pilot A captures Theta and another point and destroys pilot B, -> pA = {600, 400}, pB = {300, 500}. 2. Pilot B captures only Theta and destroys pilot A, -> pA = {300, 400}, pB = {400, 500}. 3. Neither pilot captures Theta and they do not kill each other, -> pA = pB = {300, 300}. In sum: pA = {1200, 1100}, pB = {1000, 1300}.
Then, going by the Tiebreaker rule, pilot A wins out by Total Conquest points, but these points were earned illegitimately. While an extreme example with unrealistically high values, my point is simply to say, that, if you "force" (read: allow) the offending player (pA) to win by destroying his/her opponent (pB), if the end victor ultimately requires a tiebreaker between CQ points and damage, this seemingly sufficient condition essentially validates the CQ points earned by pilot A. Thus, if a pilot believes his/her opponent to be a fairly even match, it would behoove the smarter pilot to capture an additional point or two AND bank on killing the opponent, thereby securing the round win and earning bonus CQ points if the last match comes down to both pilots still standing. In the event the offending player does not kill his/her opponent, it is a simple loss but the points are still recorded, possibly contributing to a tiebreaker win case, unless the points are either reduced or forfeited for that match (only damage counts, or so). Alternatively, CQ points and Damage could be related by some function or scalar as previously mentioned. An easier scenario (and I'm uncertain as to whether I am indifferent to it or not) would be to simply force a redrop, thereby nullifying any logistical gains of accruing capture points while unfortunately taking out 4 of the 5 potential squares the pilots may engage in 1v1 combat.
Conversely, we could just say that the pilot who wins by capturing other caps asides from Theta and wins regardless is clearly the better pilot, and leave it at that.
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Tonnel
Apr 16, 2015 3:14:07 GMT -6
Post by oldhasu on Apr 16, 2015 3:14:07 GMT -6
You dont need any tie-brakers exept damage. The only way a round could end in tie is both players fail to kill their opponent and got equal capture points. If it happens we should look at damage to determine a winner of round. If they both got no kills, equal damage and equal points score (do you really believe it could happen?) they should just redrop or whatever.
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Tonnel
Apr 16, 2015 6:46:53 GMT -6
Post by Ardai on Apr 16, 2015 6:46:53 GMT -6
I'm curious as to why Conquest Points are more significant than Damage for tie-breakers, and how this will be calculated, as Points != Damage, and drawn out matches will net more Conquest Points than short matches. Will there be some scalar applied to the Conquest Points or vice versa to the Total Damage to better equalize damage output compared to the arbitrary measure of time referred to as Points? For example, if at the end of a Best of 3, neither pilot has successfully (or bothered) killing the other, and one has dealt 1500 damage over the matches while the other has accrued > 1500 Conquest Points, does the latter pilot take the win? To further elaborate, are you sure this is enough of a condition: "if another point is capped, the offending player can only win by destroying his opponent" ? Going back to the previous case with an example scenario (we'll denote arbitrary earnings with simple sets: p[letter] = {points, damage}): 1. Pilot A captures Theta and another point and destroys pilot B, -> pA = {600, 400}, pB = {300, 500}. 2. Pilot B captures only Theta and destroys pilot A, -> pA = {300, 400}, pB = {400, 500}. 3. Neither pilot captures Theta and they do not kill each other, -> pA = pB = {300, 300}. In sum: pA = {1200, 1100}, pB = {1000, 1300}. Then, going by the Tiebreaker rule, pilot A wins out by Total Conquest points, but these points were earned illegitimately. While an extreme example with unrealistically high values, my point is simply to say, that, if you "force" (read: allow) the offending player (pA) to win by destroying his/her opponent (pB), if the end victor ultimately requires a tiebreaker between CQ points and damage, this seemingly sufficient condition essentially validates the CQ points earned by pilot A. Thus, if a pilot believes his/her opponent to be a fairly even match, it would behoove the smarter pilot to capture an additional point or two AND bank on killing the opponent, thereby securing the round win and earning bonus CQ points if the last match comes down to both pilots still standing. In the event the offending player does not kill his/her opponent, it is a simple loss but the points are still recorded, possibly contributing to a tiebreaker win case, unless the points are either reduced or forfeited for that match (only damage counts, or so). Alternatively, CQ points and Damage could be related by some function or scalar as previously mentioned. An easier scenario (and I'm uncertain as to whether I am indifferent to it or not) would be to simply force a redrop, thereby nullifying any logistical gains of accruing capture points while unfortunately taking out 4 of the 5 potential squares the pilots may engage in 1v1 combat. Conversely, we could just say that the pilot who wins by capturing other caps asides from Theta and wins regardless is clearly the better pilot, and leave it at that. I think there is a misunderstanding here. This is my fault for not being more detailed, and why I am very grateful to have players like you willing to give feedback, theory craft, and find ways to bend/circumvent the rules BEFORE the event so I can do my best to correct things Capping a non-legal point will result in the Conquest points you accumulate being disregarded for that round. You can still win the round still via opponent destruction, but you accrue 0 CQ points.
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Tonnel
Apr 17, 2015 0:05:05 GMT -6
Post by unfearing on Apr 17, 2015 0:05:05 GMT -6
I think there is a misunderstanding here. This is my fault for not being more detailed, and why I am very grateful to have players like you willing to give feedback, theory craft, and find ways to bend/circumvent the rules BEFORE the event so I can do my best to correct things Capping a non-legal point will result in the Conquest points you accumulate being disregarded for that round. You can still win the round still via opponent destruction, but you accrue 0 CQ points. Sure thing, and sounds good. Just to clarify, will the Tiebreaker rule be used for individual rounds and the whole match itself? Going back to another case, if an additional point is captured and neither pilot kills the other, would the tiebreaker be based on damage output? or the other pilot wins by default since he/she has more CQ points?
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Tonnel
Apr 17, 2015 0:38:32 GMT -6
Post by Ardai on Apr 17, 2015 0:38:32 GMT -6
Tie breakers will be used first for individual rounds, then combined for the whole match itself if needed, however I believe with everyone's feedback the scoring system has been refined well enough that every match will have a clear winner after three rounds.
If a pilot captures a point that is not Theta and neither player kills each other, then the other pilot wins by default due to having more conquest points since capping a non-legal point will forfeit all conquest points for that round.
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Tonnel
Apr 17, 2015 13:23:34 GMT -6
Post by oldhasu on Apr 17, 2015 13:23:34 GMT -6
Please mention in rules that making opponent starting caputre point netural is equal to invalid point capturing.
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